Compatibility [06] Front shifters - article comments

BikeGremlin

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To prevent article pages from being miles long, but preserve all the useful questions and answers provided over time, I've decided to copy/paste the website comments to the forum - and "move" further discussions here.

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Compatibility [06] Front shifters
 
  1. Brian Cox
    05/07/2019 at 04:45
    Hi Relja,
    This bike https://salsacycles.com/bikes/fargo/2019_fargo_tiagra has Tiagra 4700 shifters and a Deore XT 10 speed FD. Given the comment in bold at the end of this article, why does it work?
    And if this does work, as it seem it must if it is being sold by Salsa, will ST-R7020 work with FD-M8020?
    Thanks, Brian
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      Relja
      05/07/2019 at 08:55
      It’s a double – using limit screws to limit the FD movement allows it to shift and not move too far off. Tiagra shifters move the cable more than enough for that FD’s cable pull “needs”.
      Having said that: I have not been able to make it work as well as I’d like with a road crank and road FD that is not 11 / 4700 Tiagra compatible, with Tiagra 4700 shifters. Always either a bit “sluggish”, or at a risk of “over-shifting” off the largest chainring (depending on the limit screw setup). Haven’t tried 4700 shifters with MTB cranks and FD though. Took a lot of fiddling and trial & error to make it work OK – but not perfect. Playing with cable pre-tension and limit screws.
      Note:
      MTB FD-s pull ratio is a bit different than road FD pull ration – but for all I know, it still doesn’t match the “new” 11 / 4700 cable pull standard.
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      Christian
      15/05/2020 at 23:39
      Hi Relja
      First of all thanks for your great articles! They are very helpful!
      For a conversion of my brothers trekking bike, we are planning a similar thing that Brian already asked for. I have done quite some research but I could still need you help. We would like to combine Tiagra 4700 shifters with a MTB triple crank and MTB FD (XT 10 speed) using only the two larger chain rings.
      A friend has a bike with Ultegra R6800 shifters. He measured the left shifter’s cable pull. It is 1mm from Low Trim to Low, 4mm from Low to Top Trim and again 1mm from Top Trim to Top, which makes 6mm in total. My brother measured his original MTB shifter pulls 7mm, when going from the middle chain ring to the large one. So, we need a little more cable pull than Tiagra 4700 gives us (in case it pulls the cable as Ultegra R6800).
      Therefore, I have two questions:
      1. Can you confirm that the Tiagra 4700 left shifter’s cable pull is the same as Ultegra R6800’s cable pull?
      2. Is there any possibility of alternative cable routing for the FD (similar to Hubbub used on RD) to increase FD shift ratio?
      Thanks a lot for your help,
      Christian
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      Relja
      16/05/2020 at 07:53
      To answer the first question – I’d have to measure both. In terms of function – both don’t work well with previous generations front derailleurs (as in non “11 speed road” and/or Tiagra 4700 FD-s).
      Still, I would be surprised if the shifter didn’t pull enough cable to make the gear change. I would expect it to pull more than enough.
      FD alternate cable routing usually makes it too hard to pull on the shifter lever – so it’s not something I’d recommend.
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      Christian
      16/05/2020 at 08:18
      Thanks a lot for your really quick reply. Do you have a Tiagra 4700 left shifter at hand? If yes, would you mind measuring its cable pull if this is not too much effort? This would help us very much. We have already tried to find anyone with Tiagra 4700 shifters on the internet and also kept our eyes open in real life. However, we have not yet been able to find anyone with these shifters. So, your help would be appreciated very, very much!
      Thanks and have a good day,
      Christian
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      Relja
      16/05/2020 at 13:04
      I plan to take measures as bikes come, over time, and put it all in a table – similar to one for the rear derailleurs.
      Right now – no sources at hand. But over time, it will be full.
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      Christian
      17/05/2020 at 22:15
      Making such a list is a great idea! That’s what is missing for shift mixing. At least, I haven’t found such list anywhere on the internet.
      I you want me to contribute the cable pulls of my bikes, please feel free to ask.
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      Relja
      18/05/2020 at 06:58
      There’s a saying in my country: “two heads are wiser than one”. 🙂
      So that would be great, if for no other reason, then to cross-check the data.
      You can use the email: relja [at – @ ] this domain [ bikegremlin dot com ]
      – written like this to make it harder for the most persistent beings in the known universe – spam bots – to pile up my inbox. 🙂
      My measuring is:
      – loosening the cable pinch bolt
      – holding it tightened by hand
      – shifting so the cable is tightened all the way a shifter would pull it
      – marking the part where it enters the shifter housing (wherever it’s easiest to spot and measure), using some tape
      – shifting one gear and measuring the movement
      – shifting two gears and measuring
      – shifting all the gears, measuring total movement (total number of clicks is always one fewer than the total number of gears)
      This way I can spot any mistakes in measuring. Total movement is the most accurate and precise, as any slight errors in measurement don’t affect the result as much.
      But with Campagnolo rear derailleurs, it gives only an average, since cable pull per shift varies (and small movements of rear deraillerus are very difficult to measure accurately using only one click).
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    Usd
    19/09/2019 at 03:30
    Which triple shimano front shifter pull more cable dynasys mtb 3x or road 3x?
    Tiagra ST-4703 pull is the same as ST-4603 (unlike ST-4700 which is not the same as ST-4600)
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    Mike
    27/10/2019 at 03:05
    Relja, which GRX FD should I use with Tiagra 4700 10s shifters (and a GRX 11s crankset) – 10s or 11s?
    Thanks…
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      Relja
      27/10/2019 at 05:08
      As far as I know Shimano GRX derailleurs have the same cable pull ratio as the rest of Shimano 11 speed road (and Tiagra 4700) derailleurs. So either should work.
      Disclaimer 1: I haven’t yet tested any GRX equipment.
      Disclaimer 2: Shimano, usually quite conservative, says only 10 speed GRX is compatible in their compatibility charts.
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    Phil Thomas
    16/01/2020 at 21:40
    Relja, I have an old M772 FD and need to replace it. Would most Shimano triple shifters be compatible? Thanks.
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      Relja
      16/01/2020 at 22:53
      As far as I know, when it comes to front derailleurs, Shimano road Tiagra 4700 and all Shimano road 11 speed front derailleurs require longer cable pull.
      With MTB derailleurs, different mounts and cable attachments were made (side swing), but cable pull hasn’t changed.
      So I would expect all Shimano MTB triple FD-s to work fine as a replacement.
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    Toby
    27/03/2020 at 17:23
    Hi Relja
    Hope you’re doing OK in these challenging times.
    I’m hoping you can help. I’m trying to convert a 90s MTB to an adventure bike with drop bars and road shifters. The bike hs a triple chainset and a 10-speed cassette, although I only want to use two chainrings up front as the 105 road shifters I have are 10-speed doubles. The problem is the bike needs a top-pull FD and one with enough range to reach the outer two chainrings (so plenty of MTB triple FDs I could use) but it needs to work with the road shifters. Have trawled the internet but am just getting more and more confused about compatibility. Any suggestions?
    Thanks
 
  1. Dylan Brinkley
    24/06/2020 at 00:12
    Hello,
    I was hoping you could help. I have a Tiagra 4700 10s crankset. The rest of the bike is 9s drivetrain except my front deraiuler which is 6s and old (Currently using friction shifters for FD). Im looking to get a new front derailleur and eventually sti shifters to replace the downtube ones currently equipped.
    My question is if I get a Tiagra FD, can I use Sora 9s sti shifters. This would be ideal to save money over buying a new cassette, RD and chain, but if its recommend to upgrade all to 10s then I will just have to consider that before replacing my downtube shifters.
    Thank you very much for your help,
    Dylan
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      Dylan Brinkley
      24/06/2020 at 00:35
      Or after reading more of your posts, would it be better to buy a 9 speed fd? Thanks
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      Relja
      24/06/2020 at 07:02
      STI shifters are a great improvement ergonomically – no doubt about that. However – they are a lot more costly, and a lot less durable/robust, compared to down tube friction shifters.
      Tiagra 4700 FD will not work very well with Sora shifters. It has pull ratio compatible with new, 11 speed road shifters (they changed both the rear, and the front derailleur cable pull ratio with Tiagra 4700 and 11 speed road groups).
      Having said that – DT shifters are rather light – you could use STI-s, while keeping the front DT shifter. 🙂 Frankenstein, yes, but it would work wonderfully.
      Another option is to keep the current front derailleur and just mount the STI-s – 9 speed ones should work fine with the 6 speed FD.
      Now, there are older 10 speed shifters (105 5600, and 5700 for example), but the new Tiagra 4700 10 speed system shifts a lot more precisely (probably thanks to a lot longer cable pull).
      Having said all that, whenever someone mentions an “upgrade” I always ask:
      What does the current system lack?
      10 speed system, compared to 9 speed one will:
      – Give one more gear ratio between the highest and the lowest gear.
      – Allow a bit better rear shifting under load (though that’s something to be avoided, unless racing, or even then unless it’s critical).
      – Shift for a split second faster in the rear (and, with the new Tiagra 4700 – be a bit more “precise”, though 9 speed stuff also works very well, so that’s really marginal).
      – Cost more when it comes to chain and cassette replacement.
      In my experience, good quality tyres are among the better upgrades one can get (like Continental Grand-Prix 4 seasons, or Continental Grand Prix 4000s / 4000s II, or 5000 – haven’t tried the 5000 myself – the links are Amazon affiliate, but I’d recommend supporting the local LBS and shopping there).
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      Dylan Brinkley
      24/06/2020 at 17:14
      First off, thank you for all the information!
      Next, I would rather not upgrade to all 10s because the 9s setup works just fine for me and doesn’t lack anything currently except for desired but not necessarily needed, sti-s. I just wasn’t sure if upgrading would be the best option to match the 10s crankset. Ideally, I would be able to leave everything alone and upgrade to sti shifters, which it sounds like I can do. Also it sounds like for my birthday i’ll be asking for some new tyres!
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    ALFREDO MONTI
    08/09/2021 at 15:36
    Hi Relja.
    I Want to buy a shimano 3×9 road shift lever, rear derailled are Sora 3000 gs 3x9v with cassette 11/34T Alivio, but i have a problem with front derailler because my bike has top swing and most shimano front derailler are down swing.
    Have a suggest?
    Thanks
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      Relja
      09/09/2021 at 19:01
      Ciao Alfredo,
      If your seat tube has a round, symmetrical profile, you should be able to mount a bottom swing FD that is compatible with 3×9 road shifter levers (STI-s).
      If it is not, or if something else on the frame (or the bike) gets in the way of mounting a FD clamp higher, then I’m afraid I don’t have a solution that is compatible. Maybe some other website visitor will have an idea. It’s also worth asking on bikeforums.net.
      Relja
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    SimVG
    17/07/2022 at 12:44
    Hi! Your website is a great source of information. One thing I’m not too sure about and would like your opinion on:
    I have a 2008 Scott SUB20 with Deore M530 3×9 group set. I would like to change the bike from flat bar to road/gravel style. Will the Sora 3-speed shifter work with my FD-M530 DeoreLX ? I can’t seem to find the cable pull ratio’s.
    Also, if I go with the Sora 3×9 road shifters, are the (cable) brakes compatible with the V-brakes that are on my bike?
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      Relja Novović
      17/07/2022 at 14:01
      Hi Sim,
      I would expect the FD to not work very well with the STIs.
      Will the poor front shifting be acceptable?
      The only thing to do is to give it a try, and if it’s not, look for a triple road shifter (like Shimano Sora, or Claris).
      Regarding brakes – no, V-brakes will not work well with STIs.
      You could use Mini-V-brakes though.
      What I did was use only road-bar brake levers, and mount bar-end friction shifters.
      That’s my choice for robustness and simplicity, for my own bike(s). 🙂
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    SimVG
    19/07/2022 at 18:40
    Thank you for the information!
    Adding a Sora FD and mini-brakes to my shopping list won’t be a deal breaker 🙂 just figuring out what I need.
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    Francesco
    24/08/2022 at 19:28
    First of all thanks for the great article.
    As far as you know, do a deore m591 have the same cable pull of a deore m6000 (same 3×10)
    I have to replace the FD 591 to put a front pull m6000 and I would like to keep the 591 shifter
    Thanks in advance
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      Relja Novović
      26/08/2022 at 07:21
      Hi Francesco,
      Deore M591 is a 9-speed series as far as I know.
      The FD should work, but the RD should not work with a 10-speed shifter.
 
  1. Luigi Frisone
    23/10/2022 at 07:31
    Hi, dear Relja.
    Thanks for your Compatibility series artile, it’s really helpful.
    I’ve read the article about Shifter and FD, It said the new 4700 have new pull raito it isn’t compatible with old shifter. And I need help about FD-4703.
    The issue is that I don’t want to use the ST-4703 flat bar shifter, because I need to buy a extra pair of shifter only for this crankset, it’s rare and about 100 buck. Which front derailleurs flat bar shifter can I use? Or anyother FD and flat bar shifter, for the 4703 crankset by 50-39-30 teeth?
    I’m planning use the M8000 RD and right hand shifter, which is alreay have, It’s better to use the same set shifter for FD.
    Thanks.
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      Relja Novović
      23/10/2022 at 11:55
      Hi Luigi,
      Derailleur must be compatible with the (indexed) shifter. For a 50T largest chainring, and triple cranks, you generally need a triple road derailleur (for best shifting performance).
      If you already have M8000 shifters (and they work well for the rear shifting), using a matching M8000 series FD would result in the FD’s cage not following the curve of your largest chainring, for your 50-39-30 cranks. It would probably have to sit too high, affecting the shifting performance.
      If you already have a FD-4703, see if it can work well-enough with the shifters you have. I expect it won’t (the shifter won’t pull enough cable for it to work properly) – but it doesn’t hurt to try.
      If you confirm the cable pull is insufficient, you could try with an older style 10 (or 9, or 8) speed Shimano road triple FD.
      9-speed Sora is not expensive, and should work fine. Old, 10-speed 105 is also quite good.
      Just make sure you use a triple (not a double) FD for road bikes – i.e. a triple FD for a 50T largest chainring. Most MTB FDs are designed for up to 48 or fewer teeth (44, or even only 40 and similar).
      Note/disclaimer:
      I haven’t tried this particular combo, so can’t 100% confirm it will work.
      Shimano says that 8000 shifters are only compatible with FD-M9000 and FD-M8000.
      Those FDs, on the other hand, will only work nicely with 40-30-22T and similar cranks (that’s where I completely agree with Shimano 🙂 ).
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    Luigi Frisone
    24/02/2023 at 02:30
    Hi, Relja.
    Thanks for the article and replys.
    After read the article, it said the shimano 11s FD only compatible with 11s shifter.
    Is there any flat bar FD shifter compatible with 11s FD, excepet SL-RS700 & SL-4700?
    Thanks Relja
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      BikeGremlin
      27/02/2023 at 07:55
      Hi Luigi,
      I can’t think of a model off the top of my head. However, here’s how I’d look for an alternative:
      – Shifters are usually made in pairs – front and rear.
      – I’d look for a model where the rear shifter is designed for Shimano 11-speed road RDs (or Tiagra 4700, or one of the GRX groups).
      With such shifters, there is a high probability that the front shifter will also be compatible – as all those groups also use the same, long(er) FD cable pull system.
      Of course, it’s always a good idea to check the manufacturer’s specs or with the seller – before buying.
      Relja
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    Neil
    30/07/2023 at 20:07
    Hi Relja,
    Thank you for the helpful info (a lot of other info online is specific to rear derailleurs)
    In the article you say the exception is 11 speed Shimano, however, as one comment pointed out, there is a Salsa bike using a Tiagra 4700 front shifter with an XT 10 speed front derailleur. And as we know, Tiagra 4700 is compatible with 11 speed (or at least it is in the rear). My question is, will an 11 speed road/GRX front shifter be able to shift an XT 10 speed/double front derailleur? And if not, would using a 4700 front shifter be a good workaround? (if indeed that is actually different to an 11 speed front shifter). Obviously I’d be using it with a mtb chainset. Would I run into issues with the trim?
    Thanks
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      BikeGremlin
      31/07/2023 at 11:41
      Hi Neil,
      As far as I know, Tiagra 4700 front shifter pulls the same amount of cable as other Shimano 11-speed road shifters. So, if a derailleur works with one, it should work with the other as well.
      Having said that, I would expect a GRX derailleur to work better than an MTB derailleur. With GRX (and road 11-speed and Tiagra 4700) derailleurs, the shifter’s cable pull is spot on, while with an MTB FD, the cable pull is good-enough.
      Relja
 
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